25 May 17, 16:12johnno: Anyone here
25 May 17, 21:00Ian Thomason: Anon. First point, I have no "axe-to-grind with the RF", or the RCI, or CAI or GRC for that matter. Unlike many who visit here, I'm not anti any of these organisations; I'm simply opposed to their doctrines, such as they are. Second, I'm a New Testament exegete; my principle area of academic expertise is corpus that is the Greek New Testament. I approach it as a believer, certainly, but also as someone very well trained in the scientific principles and methods of my craft. Third, you've yet to offer anything of substance approaching an intelligent, facts-based and logical argument on the question of God's existence. From what I've seen thus far, and to be perfectly frank, I honestly doubt you'd be able to keep up in such a discussion! You're more than welcome to try and prove me wrong of course, but to do so you really do need to try a little harder
25 May 17, 21:24anon: Ian, the logic I have already provided re the non-existence of god far outshines your non-existent attempts to justify divine authorship/inspiration of the bible. I guess I am at an advantage having been a believer now a non-believer. I appears to me that you are struggling to separate your faith from your claimed scientific principles. You have offered no intelligent argument to support either the existence of god or a divine hand in the writing of the bible. Take this feedback as yet another opportunity for you to explain how an omnipotent god could preside over such a c-o-n-f-u-s-i-o-n of doctrine in Christianity globally? I'm not asking you to try harder. I'm just asking you to TRY!
26 May 17, 13:05Blue: No amount of waffle from anyone can prove the existence of god. All of it is just pointless human pseudo intellectual wankery. The biggest clue for me though was the complete absence of any of this "love of god" which is meant to be shed abroad in hearts of christians by said holy spirit. In 40 years of church attendance the only people I ever saw genuine love in were the ones who would have been like it religion or not. You never, ever found it in the clowns up the front or any of their sycophants. You always found real love in the gentle, humble quiet people, those who weren't in it for their ego, but just because they wanted to love people.
26 May 17, 14:23biblianut: Anon, What logic do you view when it comes to the natural creation (general revelation)? Bottom line is, most scientists, mathematicians, etc., admit that everything is designed and must acknowledge it just cannot happen by evolution, etc, alone and there has to be a designer. Whatever opinion one has, it all gets down to being beyond human understanding. I believe it is the most 'logical' reason belief in God's existence and easier to accept.
26 May 17, 14:26biblianut: Blue, One cannot prove that God doesn't exist either. The love of God of
26 May 17, 14:28biblianut: exists in man's heart from the beginning. Mankind just doesn't acknowledge it. We all know what' right or wrong
26 May 17, 14:32biblianut: (S****, I keep hitting the 'enter' button before finishing my comment) Moddy, can you make it so that one can 'edit' here?
26 May 17, 17:46Ian Thomason: Anon. Ha, ha, ha
26 May 17, 22:44Neddles: I have a Q. how did Paul study the word, when there was no books/ Bible, can a person still get the gift that was given to him through the spirit, the Spirit will make known in your Heart the words of Gods way, was it meant to be we needed a book, or did humans request a book, I get the feeling we should receive the spirit og God and his ways made known in our hearts, not through a confusing book, some pondering to do????
27 May 17, 00:01biblianut: Neddles, Paul was given what is termed 'special' revelation from God. Remember, he was the "Pharisee of Pharisees" before his conversion on the road to Damascus and no doubt had knowledge of the Messiah (Christ). We are fortunate to have the written word today. There is nothing confusing to one that reads the bible in the comfort and guidance of the Spirit .
27 May 17, 01:11anon: Blue - well said. 40 years wow. Tell me about your journey from belief/delusion to unbelief/reality? I found it a very difficult uncomfortable time going to church while knowing there was nothing you could do to stop the growing revelation that it was all a crock. Years later I still bear the scars. And yes Christians are as self-absorbed as anyone else!
27 May 17, 01:22anon: biblianut, faith in a creator/designer is a common human response to the universe appearing "designed". This demonstrates that faith/belief in a god meets a fundamental human need. Just because something is beyond human understanding doesn't mean there is a god and it certainly doesn't mean there is a Christian god. If you had been brought up in a Muslim culture the same existential questions would be answered by faith in Allah. There are so many different religions which operate in essentially the same way: god created and god loves believers and god demands your commitment or bad things will happen to you! Religion is made by humankind for humankind.
27 May 17, 09:22Ian Thomason: Anon. I recommend you browse the forum proper. You'll soon discover your position has been considered in detail before, and conclusively rebutted before However, if you believe you have something 'new', then please add to the relevant thread to enable a proper consideration followed by detailed review.
27 May 17, 09:22Ian Thomason: Pete. Scaredy cat
27 May 17, 09:33biblianut: Anon, We can differ in views 'till doomsday, doesn't change what is absolute truth. Your view of Christianity, God and even Islam comes from your lack of knowledge in such matters. It's all your own opinion. Beyond human understanding doesn't mean that God DOESN'T exist either.
28 May 17, 08:34Blue: I don't recall arrogance being a fruit of the spirit, yet so many christians excel at it
28 May 17, 11:24biblianut: Blue, Where did you get that bit of information? I can't recall any in my circle of Christians that come across arrogant.
28 May 17, 11:32biblianut: I do feel a lot of arrogance in society in general, especially those that don't wish to "integrate" here. Though there are some that can't because of their culture and won't change.
28 May 17, 23:39Blue: Ralph, if that is the case you are indeed a fortunate man
29 May 17, 00:29biblianut: Blue, I don't know, maybe it's where I live that makes the difference or how one see things. How ever, it doesn't get to me any more, not to the point of condemning people for it. I do not let trivial things like that upset me any more.
29 May 17, 00:35biblianut: It is ones reaction to a situation that determines the outcome of the objective. Call me a 'Utilitarian' if you like.
29 May 17, 00:44anon: Further to Blue's input I'd also like to observe that Christianity is a fundamentally selfish religion. Followers are asked to adhere to and convert people to the Christian religion and endure any hardship and persecution they experience in life in exchange for the promise of ETERNAL life as a transformed non-human being with all joy and no pain FOREVER. If we look at this trade-off there is nothing selfless about it. It's a completely self-serving mind-trip. The same goes for all other religions promising an 'afterlife' as reward for sacrificing one's current life to the cause. Don't get me wrong, I know plenty of Christians I consider to be good giving people but let's not pretend this is without the promise of extreme reward.
29 May 17, 00:51anon: biblianut, wake up, you are the one proffering unsupported opinion whereas I attempt to use logical reasoning to make my case. If I was a believer, I'd suggest god gave me a capacity for logical reasoning and would expect me to use it... which would of course lead to unbelief!
29 May 17, 01:55biblianut: Anon, Someone told me "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
29 May 17, 13:23biblianut: Anon, You build your case on logical reasoning only?
29 May 17, 21:33anon: Biblianut, logical reasoning is all that's necessary however I also have a few decades of experience of "being a Christian" , and I'm happy to touch on some of the learning from that to support the non-existence of Jehovah.
29 May 17, 21:42Ian Thomason: Anon. Again, if you believe you have something new to offer; something that hasn't been discussed here at length before, then nail your colours to the mast in the forum proper. Nothing I've read from you in the chatbox thus far warrants keystrokes in reply
29 May 17, 23:15Anon: Ian - your dodging of the questions is somewhat tiresome. You have failed to answer the simplest questions posed by me in this 'chatbox'. That's not surprising although it would be prefereable for you to be up-front about that inability or unwillingness.
30 May 17, 17:43Ian Thomason: Anon. Interesting. I've made close to 3,000 posts on this forum, having debated with all manner of 'nay-sayers', and over the better part of a decade. So I don't think I've a reputation for 'dodging' anything However, the fact remains you've said nothing noteworthy, and nothing new. So I'll state again: if you think you've something to offer, find an appropriate thread among the hundreds that exist on the forum proper, and put forward your case. Accept the challenge, and put your views on the permanent record (I'd caution you better be prepared to demonstrate considerably more in the way of logical sophistication than you've shown thus far, which has been underwhelming at best). Physical challenge: own your opinions and provide us with your name
30 May 17, 18:29Blue: Ralph, pray tell what is so bad about logical reasoning?
30 May 17, 18:30biblianut: Blue, Nothing but make sure it is informed reasoning before commenting.
30 May 17, 18:31biblianut: Not all reasoning is just logical
30 May 17, 18:41biblianut: Quote for today: "There are no bad character traits. There are only badly channeled ones". By Mendel Adelman
31 May 17, 07:27Blue: Everyone has the right to comment, no matter how they came to their conclusions. Some people will believe and some won't, and both positions are okay. If a person has deconverted from christianity, you can be sure they have pretty good reasons. Some people reason their way out of it, some just get sick of all the drama, and some have the whole foundation of their life torn out from underneath them when they realise none of it is true. Have a little compassion. Some people leave the faith because of the harshness of christians.
31 May 17, 13:35biblianut: Who-whoo! Had an ultra sound this morning and had two specialists bamboozled and told me they couldn't find anything and everything is clear, . Must be doing something right.
31 May 17, 13:43biblianut: Sorry Noel, I don't appear "damned" and miserable for leaving your GRC church.
31 May 17, 18:13Blue: Ralph, that is great news!
31 May 17, 18:21biblianut: Thanks Tracy
31 May 17, 18:58biblianut: Some wise words- https://www.meaningfullife.com/mlc-tv/why-you-should-let-go-of-control/
4 Jun 17, 22:06Jess: I know I'm replying years later, but I myself use to be apart of the cult 13 uears ago for maybe 4 months before I was pretty much kicked out. I had a certain friend who was also kicked out of the so called church for quite some time. It has taken me years to get my head around this cult. I thought it is said in the bible to forgive and love our brothers and sisters when they screw up not kick them out and pretend they don't exist.
4 Jun 17, 22:19biblianut: Jess, There is nothing to get your head around. It's not a 'Christian' church, it is a 'no forgiveness' church.
4 Jun 17, 22:23Blue: No love in that place, but the bible does say in 1 Corinthians 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." People always have and always will use the Bible for their own brand of assholery. One of the things I was always in trouble for was refusing to shun people. It is a cruel way to behave, pure emotional manipulation.
5 Jun 17, 19:11anon: Yes blue. Interesting that RF has not grown since it was created at least not in Australia. At least that was the situation some years ago - Im out of touch with it now. My point being that whether you believe in god or not unforgiveness doctrine will not attract people.
6 Jun 17, 21:25anon: Ian following your exhortation I have read some of your 3,000 posts and am somewhat bewildered by the way you engage with people online - the recent example being ExRFMason. Ask yourself what you were trying to achieve - how much was about helping him and how much was about projecting your self perceived superiority? Maybe it wasn't your finest hour - can you demonstrate an ability to self reflect on that?
6 Jun 17, 22:54biblianut: Anon, Who's being the judge now?
6 Jun 17, 22:55biblianut: or are you the prosecutor?
7 Jun 17, 20:12Blue: Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade Ralph. We were all abused by those who ran revival and thought they knew it all, we should never have had to deal with it here. There are no prizes for arrogance. It achieved nothing.
7 Jun 17, 23:14biblianut: Blue, Sure!, there are no prizes for arrogance. I browsed through the posts of ExRFMason and found that any 'arrogance' seemed to come only from him and not from the response to his views.
7 Jun 17, 23:14biblianut: My take with Anon, It's not about judging the speakers character, but listening to what is 'food for thought' in determining what is true and correct.
8 Jun 17, 20:42Blue: Well that is where we differ ralph, to me, character is everything.no pojnt co
8 Jun 17, 20:45Ian Thomason: Anon. A somewhat interesting (and hypocritical) example of commentary. However, I'm still waiting to see you add to the conversations on the forum proper. Have at it
8 Jun 17, 20:46Blue: *no pointcoming to me to preach a humble jesus, if you yourself don't understand what humility is. I say that as a general comment regarding anyone who preaces to others. One of the main things that pushed me away from belief was the absence of humility and the lack of love in those who run churches. If love is supposedly shed abroad in the hearts of christians by the holy spirit, i am yet to witness it.
8 Jun 17, 20:52Ian Thomason: Tracey. I've rarely encountered someone quite so prone at preaching at others than you, and you
8 Jun 17, 20:53Ian Thomason: Tracey. ... and you're hardly the best example of enfleshed humility either m'dear
8 Jun 17, 20:53Blue: In fact, the dismal and criminal negligence of all religions evidenced in the royal commission show clearly the utter failure of religious organisations to have any care or consideration for the children placed in their care. Where was the love then? Further it is pretty clear how many of them covered up abuse to protect their own organisations instead of the children plsced in their care. Theydidn't give a damn then, and they don't now. Nothing supernatural going on folks, just more typical human self interest.
8 Jun 17, 21:55biblianut: You are a character Tracy.
8 Jun 17, 23:08anon: Ian your modus operani is becoming clear. Deflect and dismiss the arguments and challenges of others and re-frame the matter to elevate thyself. Brilliant... in a narcissistic kind of way.
8 Jun 17, 23:13anon: Blue - I'd have to agree. The price of enlightenment is having to acknowledge the fundamentally self-serving nature of the human condition and the non-existence of any supernatural cause or solution to it. I acknowledge people's right to preach god and religion as long as they acknowledge my right to preach the opposite.
8 Jun 17, 23:16Ian Thomason: Anon. I'm still waiting for you to add something of substance to the forum proper. You've been challenged to do so a number of times, yet ... nothing
8 Jun 17, 23:46Blue: I was very disappointed when I realised it most likely wasn't true, also feel a bit stupid for taking so long to realise it.
8 Jun 17, 23:47biblianut: Blue -Tracy, I disagree with you that "the dismal and criminal negligence of 'ALL' religions is evidenced in the royal commission". I will say this, it is clearly evident that the church elders in those cases, have not done all that Shepherds are required of (read 1 Peter 5: 1-3....) but have fallen victim to the temptations and weaknesses of natural man (let the courts deal with it). On the other hand, my experience these last few years have shown me that there are some that do care and support and is heartening for me in light of their great responsibilities and at times difficult situations.
9 Jun 17, 06:29Blue: I am glad Ralph that your experiences have been positive, but that does not change the truth of the matter. You seem to always want to make excuses for men who put themselves and each other in positions of power over others, then abuse that power for their own selfish ends. That sadly seems to be normal human behaviour, but these guys are claiming having some supernatural relationship with a holy spirit that fills them with god's love, and with fruits of the spirit. They manage to convince gullible people that god placed them in their position. I think it is pretty clear church is just another old boy's club that gives those with an itch for power over others a socially acceptable place to playntheir games. The churches don't care about the lives they have destroyed, they just sweep those under the carpet. Pretty heartless for people supposedly placed in their positions by god.
9 Jun 17, 13:16biblianut: Tracy, You are judging all by the view of some that behave unjustly and are hypocritical to what they are suppose to represent. I don't for a moment excuse nor condone these criminals and hopefully, they will soon face the force of the law they deserve. According to the bible, the elders of the church face a greater damnation if they do not meet the requirements set before them. As for us, we all slip up somewhere along the line, this is where we have to tread carefully and not be hypocritical our selves.
9 Jun 17, 13:43Ian Thomason: Tracey. First, I don't think you're in a position to be judging others for sexually abusing children in their care. Second, the sexual abuse of minors doesn't describe or define Christian ministers anymore than it does those in the teaching profession (btw the latter group offends more often the former group if statistics are to be believed). Third, it remains an overwhelming fact the largest demographic of abusers of children are parents / grandparents.
9 Jun 17, 17:03Blue: It isn't a matter of being hypocritical Ralph, it is a matter of telling the truth about the churches. Not only did those running the churches do nothing, and in fact actively tried to cover up abuses, those in the churches did nothing. They still do nothing. They still attend mass every week and pretend that the church they are in has even one ounce of credibility left. people are so massively angry at Pell for failing to step up and tell the truth about what he knew that now they are making up stories about him, so they can make him accountable by whatever means necessary
9 Jun 17, 17:11Blue: Having a background in pentecostal christianity both before and after revival, it is probably fair to say that I have seen considerably worse behaviour than those in more traditional churches when it comes to behaviour of both pastors and christians. Any other denominational church I have been to has been so steeped in the 1950's that I would be surprised if they even knew what people were up to, much less give them the kind of shit that pentecostal churches lay on with a shovel. What bothers me is how widespread the abuse was, in pretty well every church and government run establishment in the 1970's and previous to that. There was no observable difference between the way government agencies and church agencies looked after children. The brutality and utter lack of concern for the welfare of the children was no problem for the christian agencies any more than it was for the government run shitholes. Wouldn't one expect church agencies to be kinder, softer, more compassion given all
9 Jun 17, 17:17Blue: those fruits of the spirit they are apparently imbued with? the thing is Ralph I don't have to tread carefully because I think christianity is a load of old cobblers. I believe the bible was written by people, to control people and that there was never any spiritual element to it, no god running the show or giving a rat's ass about humans, even though the church continually tries to make you believe the bullshit that there is a loving god that cares for you personally. Every single scrap of evidence suggests the opposite. Religion is nothing more than a comfort for the weak, and an avenue of power for the sociopaths who use that venture for their mindgames. Sure, there are those who do believe from their heart that it is all true, and in true human form they will likely be the most manipulated by whatever organisation they choose to join.
10 Jun 17, 10:40Ian Thomason: I smile a little when I see former 'believers' trotting out claims very much of the sort we've seen from 'Anon' and Tracey. Of course both of them once held passionately to perspectives that are 180 degrees removed from their current positions. In Tracey's case at least, I recall how outraged she was when I indicated her multiplied statements, behaviours and attitudes demonstrated she never knew Christ, and that she consequently had no right to be claiming the title Christian! Of course the professional literature on the psychology of religious deconversion is voluminous, and several common themes are frequently repeated. Certain personality types seem drawn to extremes. Initially the focus is intensely religious, later it becomes intensely irreligious, with such people appearing predisposed to finding the 'loopy' end of the religious spectrum (which in our context is Pentecostalism). Not too many 'centrists' suffer the same crises of belief/disbelief
10 Jun 17, 10:42Ian Thomason: Consequently, I personally find those unbelievers with no previous religious convictions more credible than I do those disbelievers who have exited Pentecostalism. Particularly when said exits weren't voluntary.
10 Jun 17, 14:23Blue: One of the truly beautiful things about becoming a christian when you are a child, is how unsullied it is. You find the ideal of jesus, a person who speaks of love and gentleness and humility and honesty, the things you care most about in the world. I felt like I had found my true north, Sadly though, like the olympic standard neurotic I am, I took responsibility for the death of jesus, never really quite understanding what it is I had done to merit such cruel punishment. But, back then I just believed what the adults around me told me. I had started going to sunday school in a congregational church with the other kids in the home I was in at the time. When it became obvious to the people who ran the home I was interested in being a christian they started taking me to the sunday night baptist services they attended. That was where I accepted jesus as my saviour. I was given a bible and a cross and chain by the people that ran the home. I loved reading the bible, particularly the words
10 Jun 17, 14:26Blue: of jesus that resonated with me. I couldn't put it down. As well as being a very emotional journey for me where i pretty much fell in love with jesus, it also became a part of my developing personality, another thing that made it so hard to let go of when the time came.
11 Jun 17, 21:24Ian Thomason: Tracey. And yet now you claim it to be all twaddle and nonsense.
12 Jun 17, 13:10biblianut: Tracy, Why blame God what sinful man has done to you? It's our own decision. Ps 34:18 "The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit". Just one of his promises that haven't changed.
12 Jun 17, 15:58Blue: Not much evidence for that though is there Ralph? Too many unanswered prayers.
12 Jun 17, 16:49biblianut:
17 Jun 17, 11:46biblianut: Don't you just hate it when you are talking to someone and someone else comes and interrupts when you're half way through the conversation and they both just ignore you, or is it just me?
17 Jun 17, 15:51Blue: Probably an extrovert, they can't help themselves.
17 Jun 17, 21:43biblianut: Hmm, I'd say downright ignorant or arrogant. Then again maybe I'm so boring to talk too.
17 Jun 17, 21:45biblianut: *listen to?